Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - The Killing Moon

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bludgeoning angel

non serviam
is a Tiering Contributor
Before I see posts trying to scrounge up defensive counterplay with the likes of Calm Mind Cresselia, Unaware SDef Calm Mind Clefable, and Substitute + Protect Gliscor, let's remember that these are not standout Pokemon otherwise and forcing every team to rely on one of them is not a healthy mechanism for metagame development. This is the epitome of being unbalanced.
You missed the mighty cm psyshock Bronzong
 
Finch and CTC put it better than I ever will, but I’ll be voting BAN on Blood Moon. The counterplay just isn’t there and using unviable counters such as CM Cress, Corviknight, Blissey (have fun losing all momentum), AB Gholdengo (lol), or « getting the play right with Gliscor » is in no way healthy for the metagame. All Blood Moon does is promote cheese and brainless shenanigans. Also the it’s too early argument is stupid and uneducated, nothing will ever come out of nowhere and suddenly make it okay, this isn’t a « the metagame has not been explored enough » issue whatsoever.
nah you forgot the goat cm bronzong can 1v1 it so obviously everybody’s just overreacting clearly smh
 

viivian

no longer the real corviknight
is a Pre-Contributor
got suspect reqs last night and will be voting ban

bloodmoon ursaluna can very easily grab opportunities to set up thanks to its great natural bulk and, from there, can easily snowball out of control, becoming near impossible to answer defensively after one calm mind boost. minds eye invalidates any ghost types trying to come in on blood moon. corviknight "checks" BM ursaluna but gets set up on for free (especially without body press) and eventually breaks to boosted blood moon. it can easily fish for crits to break past calm mind unaware clefable or blissey as both can do absolutely nothing to it, and it can even run body press under terrain to break blissey. gliscor has to predict blood moon correctly with substitute/protect to even stand a chance while also having to fear hyper voice. the fact that BM ursaluna utterly demolishes fat like this is noteworthy on its own. but its also slow and weak to common offensive types so surely it must be easy to revenge kill, right?

even setting aside vacuum wave (which is surprisingly good at revenge killing most faster threats) its bulk alongside tera can make revenge killing it a 50/50, or should i say 40/60. if you guess the wrong tera then its possible to just lose the game on the spot off of that alone due to the free turn given but even without access to tera, revenge killing it can be deceptively hard. BM ursaluna has insane bulk and investing in it allows you to live some pretty insane stuff such as:
  • 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 288-338 (66.9 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 264-312 (61.3 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 260-308 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 372-438 (86.5 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
  • 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 296-350 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
the fact that even banded zamazenta CC cannot guarantee an OHKO on this thing (without even running full defense investment mind you) says a lot about how hard this thing can be to take out. but even setting all this aside, there is still the threat of its tera and terastallizing can give you free opportunity to do whatever you want or need with no consequence. for instance if you send in sneasler to kill BM ursaluna with close combat and it terastallizes poison then youve likely already lost since you gave it the free turn it needed to do whatever it wants. it could set up a CM, heal with moonlight, anything it wants. and that is far from the interaction it can win with tera considering not only how many pokemon it sets up on with tera poison, but also considering the amount of other defensive teras it can run. you cant just send in your fighting or water type in to kill it because you have to predict if it teras and what it decides to tera into. and if you guess wrong its highly likely you end up losing on the spot. i feel like this is what particularly pushes it over the edge since it becomes much more manageable to out-offense without tera (in its current form) as an option

TLDR: ban bloodmoon ursaluna

(decided to come back and edit this to add even more reasoning as to why BM ursaluna should be banned. this pokemon is just insane)
 
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I'm at a crossroads. I am rapidly gaining the reqs necessary. This may be the first time I can actually vote on one of these! All because of the bear.

I'm having fun playing with and against the bear. I really enjoy it. I'm gaining the reqs to vote DNB...

Or I would, if not for the fact that using Ursa has fast tracked me to get those points to begin with. I wanna say that it isn't OP, but it's power has basically carried me. I'm not kicking myself down, mind. I'm no complete scrub at this game, but I'm not a high ELO player. At all. And that's fine, I have fun where I'm at, but if I want to quickly climb ranks, all I need to do is utilize Ursa.

Saying that, I solemnly, very solemnly will vote BAN. If I ever get the reqs that is.

It's such a shame, too. It's such an interesting concept; a physically bulky special sweeper! How many of those do we have? Outside of Skeledirge.
 
I'm watching basically every tournament game from Smogon Champion League, and there are some things I've noticed about this thing.

1) While it is kind of hard to get into a situation where you can start Calm Minding, when it starts, you basically have to switch in a trick user or have one of the counters to win. Games where someone forced the UrsaBM out with a trick user saw no opportunity for the thing to set up again, so I do think it's fair to say finding an opportunity to set up with this guy isn't as easy as it's being painted.

2) UrsaBM users aren't finding much success in the tournament so far, but that's not because the mon isn't very powerful, but because of extreme bad luck, horrific misplays (or what I assume are misclicks), or even one situation where a player intentionally throws because they felt like they got too lucky.

3) Of the counters to this thing I've seen, I think 2 stood out in the matches. Substitute Gliscor completely destroys any variant that isn't running hyper voice while still remaining a very useful Mon, and Unaware Calm Mind Clefable is somewhat capable of totally stalling out this mon's PP shockingly enough, as long as the user is very lucky and doesn't get hit with a crit.

I know why people despise this pokemon now though. That moment when it just Tera'd, it's on grassy terain, and it's way too bulky to kill with anything in one hit feels impossible to win. Hilariously enough, almost every time this situation happened in tournament, the opposing player somehow managed to win, but this was only because of an act of God or really confusing plays on the UrsaBM user's part.

I'm gonna keep watching to see what players at the highest level are doing with it, but my impression so far is: Not many opportunities to start setting up, but when you do, you basically need bad luck or bad plays to lose if your opponent doesn't have one of the few counters.
 
Already posted in this thread, but thinking more about it, I have decided that its in my interest to ensure that the broken bear is banned. For it to happen, I will post the Eeveetechnology that allowed me to get the Reqs. I lost 5 battles during the Suspect, which I don,t consider a good result, but Blood Moon Ursaluna didn,t contribute to any of the loses. So, this is it:

:corviknight:

Crow Of Judgement (Corviknight) (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe

- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Light Screen

+


:ogerpon_wellspring:

Carnaval (Ogerpon-Wellspring) (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: Whatever you want.
Jolly Nature
- Sword Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Grass STAB of choice
- Whatever you want.

So, did you know Corviknight learned Light Screen? In fact, it learns Reflect too, but I don,t want the bird to be that passive. Sdef Corviknight would naturally be one of the best Ursaluna checks if that bear didn,t learn Calm Mind + Moonlight. However, with Light Screen and slow U-Turn, the crow can pivot out of the bear after putting Screens, so that a teammate forces Ursaluna out. Waterpon is especially good at this, since with Tera it can gain an additional Sdef Boost, being able to take Blood Moon + Vacuum Wave pretty well. You only need to Tera if you Suspect Ursaluna will allso do it though.
Many other teammates can benefit from Light Screen, you don,t even need an HO team for this strategy to work. Another big benefit of Screen is that Corviknight lures Gholdengo in. Unless it has Thunder Wave, you can now use Gholdengo for set-up fodder with many different Mons, Waterpon included.
In the unlikely scenario Ursaluna stays in OU, this Corviknight will be having great usage as countermeasure. Hopefully it helps all the bear haters to achieve the reqs. Have a nice Eeveening!
 
Just got reqs by shamelessly and mindlessly using this set in terrain -

Ursa Warrior (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Mind's Eye
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blood Moon
- Body Press
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

Close to 90% of my games, bear was a clear wincon from turn 1 with just a little bit of positioning and scouting for tricks/encores. It's ridiculously good against all forms of playstyles, be it HO/Balance or Stall. Sure, with time the meta will come up with more innovative checks and tools to deal with the bear to an extent, but the counterplay is just not good enough to even consider keeping this thing in the meta. Comparisions to Wake suspect are understandable, but unlike the Bear, Wake's checks/counters were still relevant and useful mons in the metagame in other matchups. When Spite+Sub Spdef Corviknights begin running around just to stand a chance at dealing with this mon, you know you are in outrageous territory. I will be voting Ban, and I strongly suspect this will be the most single sided test in Gen 9 till date.
 

1LDK

I'm exhausted
is a Top Team Rater
1696107297222.png



After laddering enough, I can confidently say that this thing is so fucking stupid lmaoooo
It's so fucking easy to just set up and sweep, stab hits everything and hard

Corviknight has been a C- mon the second Gholdengo was born
Unawere Clef can be easily exploitable due to heavy hazard meta
Blissey is blissey
Psyshock CM Bronzong lmaoooo

Offense has no switch ins, you have to sack or pivot out and pray to get something in, but he can just teras and that's that
Balance has Sub Toxic Gliscor which sounds like some prime DPP strats, you have to pray the guy has the IQ of a fucking peanut, or he doesn't pack hyper voice

This thing fucks everything turn 1 except stall, and we can't have that, worse thing is, since I was not first in this thread, I can't even farm hahas with bad takes because everyone else has done that

BAN
 
Just got reqs by shamelessly and mindlessly using this set in terrain -

Ursa Warrior (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon) @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Mind's Eye
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blood Moon
- Body Press
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

Close to 90% of my games, bear was a clear wincon from turn 1 with just a little bit of positioning and scouting for tricks/encores. It's ridiculously good against all forms of playstyles, be it HO/Balance or Stall. Sure, with time the meta will come up with more innovative checks and tools to deal with the bear to an extent, but the counterplay is just not good enough to even consider keeping this thing in the meta. Comparisions to Wake suspect are understandable, but unlike the Bear, Wake's checks/counters were still relevant and useful mons in the metagame in other matchups. When Spite+Sub Spdef Corviknights begin running around just to stand a chance at dealing with this mon, you know you are in outrageous territory. I will be voting Ban, and I strongly suspect this will be the most single sided test in Gen 9 till date.
Oh God what have you done?! BRB gonna fuck the tier

You monster
Screenshot_20230930-171604.png

Sorry dunno how to spoiler
 
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On the tools there's this thing "..." and when you put your mouse above it, it says insert. Once clicked, it will give you options, click spoiler and will ask you for the name of the spoiler, and then you put the thing inside

Now that you know how to do this, give me likes because I need to farm
Much better, no eyesore, 10/10 with the assist
 

luckie

unluckiest player
I will be voting Ban, and I strongly suspect this will be the most single sided test in Gen 9 till date.
Yeah, no kidding. From my own experience, it being so criminally bulky was what sold me on it being potentially unhealthy, but it's been an echo chamber since before the suspect went live, I've seen like a grand total of 8 people who think BM isn't at least banworthy. That being said, if I manage to get the reqs:
blood moon.jpg
 
a mon can literally sneeze and smogon would want to ban them

My point is that the initial reaction of Wake reminds me of the initial reaction to Boon. I understand the mon is insane, has almost no switch ins, and is most likely broken. Even if I think it's broken, which it most likely is, I'm saying we haven't had enough time. I used to think Specs Val was broken early meta, and then time passed. New mons dropped, new strategy, etc. I keep seeing Tera Psn mentioned, doesn't that just open it up to all our grounds? Tera Ground Moth can OHKO w TB. We finally have a vacuum wave user for Gambit that forces it to Tera or KO. There are interactions with Gold, Gliscor, weather, etc. that I would like to see played out. It would force fatter builds because offense has a hard time with it. The meta is overly geared towards offense. Maybe we need a mon that forces fat.
The point of a suspect isn't to discover if something is broken, it's to vote on it. We discover if it's broken by playing the game, and I'm saying that technically there is a field of counterplay that hasn't been explored. Let me Skill Swap it and wall with Balloon Dengo lol.
Although, like I said, GF loves busting mons and giving this thing Scrappy is def the nail in the coffin, I'm just confused why we are so ban happy when we literally haven't had enough time to explore all the counterplay.

For your 2nd point, there were many times we could have suspected Gambit, that's not even an argument. And yeah, I should have just said, "Voting NB on principle. This mons counterplay has not had proper time to be explored, regardless of how broken it seems right now." It will most likely get banned, but it will be off of initial reactions, and Tera, instead of giving us time to explore. There is counterplay, but when the ladder is filled with Veil and Webs HO, players are getting mad a mon isn't OHKO and their glass cannons can't switch in. Gambit is more unhealthy and broken than Blood Moon, same w the Ogers, but Gambit has been giving months of time and counterplay exists now. The ladder is also over prepped for Offense. We saw with the quick claw shit that the ladder does not take kindly to bulky offense. Was I sort of joking when I said Skill Swap the bear, yeah. But if you told me Dnite would have to run Encore some day I would have been perplexed lol.

Anyway, we could have easily waited for this suspect. We can agree to disagree but banning this thing won't save the meta. It just shows a lack of patience and trust in ourselves to overcome what could be a valuable S tier to our meta.
he's right

i like this guy
based
 

LovelyLuna

formerly LameLiarLeo
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Bloodmoon-Ursaluna...I've watched a few games with this thing, I've played games against this monster, I've read through this thread, I've tried to theorize myself! After discussing with others, I have determined that I will be voting...DO NOT BAN on Bloodmoon-Ursaluna.

My main point, is that it loses to CM Psyshock Bronzong and will probably drop to UU! On a serious note, I think it is manageable rn and I really think it should be given more time, the meta can adapt especially well after all. I think we have just enough splashable checks and this is only within like a week of it being a problem, give it time and the meta will change. Similar to Gambit, Wake, and more. Take what I say with a huge grain of salt and please feel free to correct me, I'm not good and highly doubt I'm getting reqs. (current attempt being 9-1, every run ended before I hit 20 games)

While CM Unaware Clefable and Substitute Gliscor aren't very splashable, they are proven reliable answers. These can fit on Stall/Semi-Stall which can't punish its switch ins as well. These will probably see more usage on the archetypes for a better answer to BMU and do just fine if you give the meta time. Having to run these for stall to even have a mu into it may seem unhealthy, however stall already gets fucked by a lot of breakers as it can not apply as much pressure, despise things like Ghold and Heatran a lot too. An archetype having to rely on certain pokemon to not have a Bad MU shouldn't be a reason it's banned On the opposite side of the spectrum.

Hyper Offensive/Offensive teams like to stack hazards and output a lot of damage, Ursaluna will have a hard time switching in and an even harder time CMing up. Would probably trade a lot of the time with Blood Moon but not much more, it doesn't like switching into certain hits + spikes/toxic spikes, and can't do it more than twice, considering it is slower and is still getting hit hard. At best you switch in on Choice Locked Sball from Pult/Ghold. In that case, a lot can switch in and trade with HO, considering the mons are very frail. HO without Hazard stack probably has Veil instead, which gives them just enough bulk to reliably switch in their threat to BMU
For Bulky Offense/Balance teams, I really like the SpD Lando idea, as you hit it in and out of its Teras (Water and Poison). You surprisingly eat Blood Moon really well and can really chip it with Grass Knot/EQ. Assuming you switch in on a Blood Moon, you're doing 53-63% to te Bulky variant with Grass Knot and 46-54% with EQ. Lando should be able to wear it down, and it may go down, but Ursa is pretty much finished, especially with hazards in question. If you do switch into a CM, you can live but just barely vs the Offensive variant. This can also be replicated by SpD Gliscor who makes up for the lower bulk through Poison heal. If you don't want to run Sub it works fine in threatening it through Toxic and EQ. Protect is already a very viable move on Glisc for scouting and healing, as it has lost Roost. This protect can play an annoying mind game for Ursa, who does not appreciate losing Blood Moon/Moonlight pp and taking unnecessary damage.

Now this may be stupid since I thought about it myself instead of seeing it elsewhere, but; -Spe Corviknight (Both Relaxed/Sassy are fine, youre not intended to switch in on it at +3 or whatever). This let's you get a slow u turn on Bloodmoon to bring in an offensive mon that can force it out. The flaw in these mons is usually that they don't like taking a Blood Moon, if not straight up die to it. Corviknight let's it come in without any damage taken. The big issue is that Corv is now slower than Gambit, however it was never a proper check. Gambit can run faster sets to screw it the same way and because it's a big Tera abuser, the best Corv can do is U Turn into an actual check. Teams should not be carrying Corv as the only check and won't be too hurt in the matchup, so I'm not sure why this is a bad answer to BMU at all.

Now in general, protect may see usage, it's already fine on lefties pokemon while also scouting for things like Tera, a coverage move, or what pokemon lock into. Heatran can often get away with running it and it's even more pleasing of a move for other pokemon to try out. Answering one of the biggest threats in OU. This is probably healthier for the tier as it is far too offensively dominated imo

Also I'd like to say this has huge 4mss. While yes Hyper Voice, Body Press or Vacuum Wave can get past some of its checks, they remove something which makes Bloodmoon as scary as it is rn. If it's not using CM or Blood Moon, it's just a joke and not the same pokemon anymore. You really want Moonlight to have the longevity to muscle through all game, otherwise you're chipped down by hazards far too easily. I've seen a few drop Earth Power but it just makes you are really week into Steels. Body Press and Vacuum Wave being pathetic replacements, especially when you realise Super Effective Vacuum Wave is outputting less than 0.66% of neural Earth Power or Resisted Blood Moon. It is also probably worth mentioning how common Rain and Snow are rn, limiting its longelivity even with Moonlight.

Now I will say Bloodmoon is very strong, pushes the edge, and I've only provided very few checks. These are current OU viable answers I can think of. HOWEVER, as I've said, the meta is still very fresh. Give it time and strategies will develop, maybe some uu pokemon rising as answering BM was the push they needed. Similar to Moltress who rose after checking Gambit (I'm aware this isn't the only thing it does, but I do believe it's a big part on why it rose to OU) and Sandy Shocks who rose when Sun's viability increased, these are pokemon who were probably never thought of earlier. People will find answers as they are given time, and iot, It can always be retested or quickbanned, at least after the meta is familiar with it.

Again, I'm both bad at this game and stupid, feel free to correct me, just wanted to let my thoughts out or at least be converted, so Im not irritated about the eventual ban.
 
I think we have just enough splashable checks and this is only within like a week of it being a problem, give it time and the meta will change. Similar to Gambit, Wake, and more.
What splashable checks? Also Gambit is not something to cite in reference to adapting given that it's still viewed as majorly problematic and even people which voted no ban before have since come to regret it.


While CM Unaware Clefable and Substitute Gliscor aren't very splashable, they are proven reliable answers. These can fit on Stall/Semi-Stall which can't punish its switch ins as well. These will probably see more usage on the archetypes for a better answer to BMU and do just fine if you give the meta time. Having to run these for stall to even have a mu into it may seem unhealthy, however stall already gets fucked by a lot of breakers as it can not apply as much pressure, despise things like Ghold and Heatran a lot too. An archetype having to rely on certain pokemon to not have a Bad MU shouldn't be a reason it's banned On the opposite side of the spectrum.
This isn't really a compelling argument. They work, but the issue isn't not being splashable. They're just not really good in the overall metagame is the big issue. And yes, having to rely on overly specific counterplay that wouldn't see use without the Mon just to avoid losing to it, tends to be a sign of a problem. Similarly

I really like the SpD Lando idea, as you hit it in and out of its Teras (Water and Poison). You surprisingly eat Blood Moon really well and can really chip it with Grass Knot/EQ.
Spdef Grass knot LandoT is as specific as it gets and... what is it checking beyond BM? This set as a whole is worse than spdef Gliscor anyways. Regarding positioning, it's really not hard for it given so many Pokemon are afraid of it and it gets to chase them out while it boosts. If it really was so difficult, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion let alone suspect as it'd be more manageable. But it isn't and once it boosts, it's very difficult to remove without encuring huge damage yourself.

Heatran can often get away with running it and it's even more pleasing of a move for other pokemon to try out. Answering one of the biggest threats in OU. This is probably healthier for the tier as it is far too offensively dominated imo
Heatran is bad into BM. And BM is arguably pushing the meta more offensive to handle it so removing it would do wonders for the bulky teams of the tier.
Also I'd like to say this has huge 4mss. While yes Hyper Voice, Body Press or Vacuum Wave can get past some of its checks, they remove something which makes Bloodmoon as scary as it is rn. If it's not using CM or Blood Moon, it's just a joke and not the same pokemon anymore. You really want Moonlight to have the longevity to muscle through all game, otherwise you're chipped down by hazards far too easily. I've seen a few drop Earth Power but it just makes you are really week into Steels. Body Press and Vacuum Wave being pathetic replacements, especially when you realise Super Effective Vacuum Wave is outputting less than 0.66% of neural Earth Power or Resisted Blood Moon. It is also probably worth mentioning how common Rain and Snow are rn, limiting its longelivity even with Moonlight.
It has a tiny bit of 4MSS sometimes but nowhere near enough to be a significant issue that holds it back. Especially because it really doesn't need most of those moves, Hyper Voice or Body Press. They're just tech people do for bypassing counterplay. Offensive CM sets drop Moonlight because they aren't aiming to stay all game and just blow huge holes in teams. Snow teams, or veil teams as they are actually, took a huge hit after Bax was banned and while still solid, aren't nearly as good as they used to be. While vs Rain teams, BM can still collect a couple kills as it doesn't need to boost and will just use its bulk to trade for kills instead. It is hardly dead weight.

HOWEVER, as I've said, the meta is still very fresh. Give it time and strategies will develop, maybe some uu pokemon rising as answering BM was the push they needed. Similar to Moltress who rose after checking Gambit (I'm aware this isn't the only thing it does, but I do believe it's a big part on why it rose to OU) and Sandy Shocks who rose when Sun's viability increased, these are pokemon who were probably never thought of earlier. People will find answers as they are given time, and iot, It can always be retested or quickbanned, at least after the meta is familiar with it.
BM has been around for a couple of weeks and given what we've seen people attempt to adapt to it with, using subpar sets on Pokemon, it's clear that it's a problem. Waiting more does nothing but let it keep bludgeoning the tier without letting it develop in a healthy way, and we also don't exactly have a ton of time between now and the next DLC. As for Moltres, it rose because it was discovered to have multiple excellent qualities that let it check a wide range of relevant metagame Pokemon. Sandy Shocks rose because it was found to be a good HO Pokemon, not because of sun (and has since declined in popularity). They were also seen occasionally prior to their increased popularity, and were just niche, not bad. We're not keeping a broken Pokemon around because some lower tier Mon may rise up to check it (lol won't happen).
 

LovelyLuna

formerly LameLiarLeo
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
This isn't really a compelling argument. They work, but the issue isn't not being splashable. They're just not really good in the overall metagame is the big issue. And yes, having to rely on overly specific counterplay that wouldn't see use without the Mon just to avoid losing to it, tends to be a sign of a problem. Similarly
I assumed splashibility was the issue, my bad then. They are admittedly not the best sets rn but I wouldn't say they are bad, CM Clef can work similar to CM Bliss while also being a wincon. Can also keep the support its usual sets have (Wish Protect, Rocks, Knock or whatever). Sub Gliscor I imagine is viable enough, gives it more opportunities to spread toxic or set hazards with Poison Heal midgating the damage. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but has stall not in general needed specific counterplay for a lot of pokemon so far?

Spdef Grass knot LandoT is as specific as it gets and... what is it checking beyond BM? This set as a whole is worse than spdef Gliscor anyways. Regarding positioning, it's really not hard for it given so many Pokemon are afraid of it and it gets to chase them out while it boosts. If it really was so difficult, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion let alone suspect as it'd be more manageable. But it isn't and once it boosts, it's very difficult to remove without encuring huge damage yourself.
Isn't it checking special attackers in general fine enough? Without being passive or weak to physicals because of Intimidate, feels like it can belong on certain teams who can't afford dedicated walls. I believe this was also a set ran in past generations for a bit?

Heatran is bad into BM. And BM is arguably pushing the meta more offensive to handle it so removing it would do wonders for the bulky teams of the tier.
I'm aware, sorry I didn't clarify. Meant it as a general thing to see other pokemon follow and start running protect, used it since its an example of a mon who has gotten away with protect. Also, how come BMU is doing that? From what it seems like, it gives a check to certain offensive mons while having limited switch ins. The checks previously mentioned (CM Cress/Clefable, SpD Lando/Glisc, Sub Glisc, CM Bliss (aware its not v good at it), Slow Corv) are all defensive instead of offensive counterplay

It has a tiny bit of 4MSS sometimes but nowhere near enough to be a significant issue that holds it back. Especially because it really doesn't need most of those moves, Hyper Voice or Body Press. They're just tech people do for bypassing counterplay. Offensive CM sets drop Moonlight because they aren't aiming to stay all game and just blow huge holes in teams. Snow teams, or veil teams as they are actually, took a huge hit after Bax was banned and while still solid, aren't nearly as good as they used to be. While vs Rain teams, BM can still collect a couple kills as it doesn't need to boost and will just use its bulk to trade for kills instead. It is hardly dead weight.
I was trying to say that it wants those 4 moves yh, and if it sticks with those the counterplay stays consistent. I assume Defensive CM sets are the big issue rn? If not, my mistake then. Should still be fine as I believe they run Vaccum Wave in the last slot? Snow teams did indeed take a huge hit but I would say they're still great rn, Screens was already good pre DLC and led to the overreaction of a light clay ban from some. I don't believe it can reliably switch into rain, pretty much ever? When it does it can be a threat but it really has a hard time getting in.

BM has been around for a couple of weeks and given what we've seen people attempt to adapt to it with, using subpar sets on Pokemon, it's clear that it's a problem. Waiting more does nothing but let it keep bludgeoning the tier without letting it develop in a healthy way, and we also don't exactly have a ton of time between now and the next DLC. As for Moltres, it rose because it was discovered to have multiple excellent qualities that let it check a wide range of relevant metagame Pokemon. Sandy Shocks rose because it was found to be a good HO Pokemon, not because of sun (and has since declined in popularity). They were also seen occasionally prior to their increased popularity, and were just niche, not bad. We're not keeping a broken Pokemon around because some lower tier Mon may rise up to check it (lol won't happen).
I believe its been out for about 2? Where the majority of the focus was on Bax and Hearthflame, now that they are gone it gets to shine. I think it's better to give it some more time and watch how the meta adapts. The pokemon were discovered to be good in response to other really good stuff yeah, the meta can adapt and I'm sure it can adapt to BMU, I don't think giving it another week or so would be outrageous? You're prob right though, know this stuff more at least.
 
Man, if you are not running Hyper Voice, this pokemon is completely worthless against substitute Gliscor. If you are running Hyper Voice, then that means you're not running body press, Earth Power, or Vacuum Wave which means this pokemon becomes much weaker against stall/loses the utility of priority.

People dismissed this criticism earlier, saying having to run special sets to check it shows that it's a problem, but there isn't much out there that isn't as splashable as Substitute Gliscor or unaware clef with boots. This pokemon is truly making limited impact on the high ladder, and not really doing much in tournaments (so far) either because basically everyone is running stuff to check it now and the meta is so offensive that this very slow bear that is much frailer than its other form has trouble getting anything started. I think it was a bit overstated how easy it'd be to snowball with it. If anything, Gliscor feels like much more of a problem, but its poison is a lot less flashy than the big bear that shoots lasers out of its forehead.
 
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it probably has what, ~50% usage so far in SCL week 1? That's pretty insane. Also like 99% of high ladder games (actually high ladder games, not 1700) are hidden so I doubt your anecdotal opinion on what it's doing on high ladder is even something resembling accurate. Also no pokemon, no matter how broken they are, is some autowin button. That doesn't mean they aren't broken or anything remotely healthy for competitive play.
 
it probably has what, ~50% usage so far in SCL week 1? That's pretty insane. Also like 99% of high ladder games (actually high ladder games, not 1700) are hidden so I doubt your anecdotal opinion on what it's doing on high ladder is even something resembling accurate. Also no pokemon, no matter how broken they are, is some autowin button. That doesn't mean they aren't broken or anything remotely healthy for competitive play.
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I've peaked in the 1900s and beaten players with even higher scores. I'll be the first to admit I'm not the greatest player of all time, but I know about what people are using up there and play against those people frequently. Like, I'm not referring to 1700s, I think that was an unfair assumption on your part.

And ya, the pokemon is getting a lot of usage right now because it's a new toy and it's being billed as the most broken pokemon in the tier. From what I've observed so far (and I'm really emphasizing this part because I fully realize I could be proven wrong here), it's not having as much success as what many of us assumed because of a few observable reasons. It's slow, extremely tera reliant in a way even Gambit isn't, if its sweep is disrupted with a trick or encore it's very hard for it to get another shot at initiating one again, especially after Tera. It gets completely locked out by Gliscor with substitute unless it's running Hyper Voice, and it gets stalled out by unaware clef unless it gets lucky with Earth Power or crits.

If it's running extra bulk to help it set up, weird niche switch ins actually start working. One game had a Manaphy come in on a Hyper voice, and then Tail Glow, forcing this thing out and taking roughly 40% in the process (less with leftovers factored in). That same Ursa never got an opportunity to do anything again really, for the rest of the game.

From the way this conversation is going, this pokemon is probably going to get banned anyways, but all I'm saying is that might not be 100% necessary for the health of the meta game, at least not now. Ironically, I voted to ban Walking Wake when that was a thing, and in the fullness of time I actually think we probably should have banned it. Here, I have my doubts.
 
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It has nothing to do with whether you're 1700s or 1900s, you can't just can extrapolate it's high ladder success based on just your own games, especially if you're using structures/certain mons that are overcompensating for the fact that the bear is so oppressive in the builder and centralizing in game.
 
It has nothing to do with whether you're 1700s or 1900s, you can't just can extrapolate it's high ladder success based on just your own games, especially if you're using structures/certain mons that are overcompensating for the fact that the bear is so oppressive in the builder and centralizing in game.
That's a fair point. I'm mainly basing my take on my own laddering experiences (not that I'm running super anti-bear teams), and many games I've watched in the 1500-1700 ranges on showdown as well as the charity tournament and champion league matches.

That said, besides people running substitute on their Gliscors, I'm not actually seeing that much team build warping in any context yet. People are not running Cresselia for example, and are managing fine against this bear. I could be fully wrong on this point, because it's from my own perspective, but what other adaptions and concessions have people been forced to make because of the presence of this pokemon in the meta? It's at number 5 in usage after all. Not trying to be combative here, I'm curious.
 
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